Composer Harry Gregson-Williams took on the tall order of scoring Gladiator II with Hans Zimmer’s epic score of the first Gladiator film in mind. The original Gladiator film starring Russell Crowe is well-remembered in all aspects, including the score. Gregson-Williams set out to honor Zimmer’s work, connect the two movies thematically through music and do it all for the legendary director Ridley Scott, who helmed the first film. One might say that taking on the sequel to arguably the greatest swords and sandals movie is no ordinary day at the composer’s office.
In writing the music for Gladiator II, Gregson-Williams had to connect the two films by mastering the tone and themes with music. Whether it was coming up with music for Denzel Washington’s mischief-making Macrinus, Paul Mescal’s soulful Lucius, conventional battle sequences, and the truly feral gladiator scenes in the Roman Colosseum, Gregson-Williams had one sizable plate to fill. In our conversation, we discuss how Gregson-Williams found that balance of tribute and originality to create a score just as memorable as Zimmer’s nearly quarter-of-a-century-old masterwork of film composition.
The Contending: Gladiator II is a long-in-coming sequel to a beloved film. I imagine there is some desire on your part to connect your score to the first film while also doing your own thing. Did you feel the need to strike that balance?
Harry Gregson-Williams: I wanted to honor the essence of the first movie. Not just the first movie but the first movie’s score, particularly since it was written by my friend Hans Zimmer. One of my first conversations with Ridley was about wanting the music to be a fresh score. He agreed. Little did I know that I would have 80 or 90 minutes of original music when I started. But somewhere along the line, we wanted to give the audience a warm and fuzzy feeling and bring in Hans’ main theme from the first movie. Additionally, I saw no reason not to collaborate with Lisa Gerrard, who was the spiritual essence of that first film. Both were very happy for me to go ahead. We tracked a path from Lucius’ small beginnings. When we meet him, he’s a straightforward chap. At least, we think he is. I knew that what I needed to do was to score the arc of his character. If you look at his costume, for instance, or the way he’s dressed to begin with, it’s very simple. He becomes the gladiator that his destiny requires him to be over time. So musically, I had to chart that progress thematically. I needed to make my thematic material for Lucius, a second cousin once removed, if you like, from the main theme for the first movie. If I were to reflect any music from the first film, particularly a line later on in the script that read something like “it’s at this moment that Lucius becomes Maximus,” we thought wouldn’t that be a great place to bring Hans’ tune in at that moment, which is probably three pages from the end of the script.
When constructing Lucius’ new theme, the theme for his character, I snuck in a two-note interval that is prevalent in Hans’ main theme. I use it in a slightly different way. Hans was very supportive, by the way. When I listened to his main theme for Gladiator, I could hear this falling seventh, which is a very noticeable interval that he uses again and again. I thought if I used something like this within Lucius’ theme, by the time I get to the moment that I want his theme to evolve and become Maximus’ theme, we would be in good stead. Ridley thought it was a great idea. With Lisa, I wanted to use her voice right at the beginning of the movie, just so that as you’re settling into your seats, the familiar ethereal, mysterious, beautiful sound of Lisa Gerrard was there. And of course, although it has nothing to do with me, we used their song from the first film at the very end of the movie. In between, there had to be 80 to 90 minutes of original score. Once we charted that out, then I could get to work on creating all the music that was necessary for this film.
The Contending: Thinking of how characters impact your score: Denzel Washington is a not-so-secret weapon in this movie. He can’t be a secret because he’s Denzel Washington. But he is doing something in the movie that is within the movie but also sets his character apart because the entire motive of his character is to be this lever puller, so to speak, behind the throne. There’s a playfulness in his performance that doesn’t necessarily exist elsewhere in the film. Did that impact the way you scored his scenes?
Harry Gregson-Williams: It did. It was clear that I needed to be subtle around him. I didn’t need some big blasting trombones underneath it to signify him as the bad guy. He does a great job of being subtle and sneaky. The first cut I saw of the movie, I reacted very much like other people have, I thought his performance was wonderful and I thought his character is really deep and rich. There’s this kind of sneaky sliding figure motif that I created that follows him around. It’s played by an old friend of mine, Hugh Marsh, on an electric baritone violin. Electric and baritone don’t usually go in the same sentence as violin. It’s specially made, the strings are longer, therefore the sound is deeper. The electric part gave me the opportunity to sonically treat what he was playing in a slightly different way. I felt that gave us this mysterious and uneasy feeling underneath his performance. The audience likes him, but he reveals his true self to be a man with no morals at all.
The Contending: You’ve scored action, you’ve scored historical projects, epic projects. This is all three of those things in one. It’s also a little bit of a wild movie. There are some stunning, eye-popping moments. What particular challenges did it create to make this musical stew?
Harry Gregson-Williams: I have done my fair share of scores for action movies, but this was a different beast altogether, really, because of the range that was needed–some very emotional quiet moments that were necessary, which I thoroughly enjoyed scoring. I use a group of viols called Fretwork. I first met them when I used them on Kingdom of Heaven for Ridley many years ago. They’re the precursors to violin, viola, and cello; they’re older instruments. And they’re quite nebulous in their sound, quite chilly, not played with lots of vibrato. I figured that on some of the scenes, the quieter scenes, the more emotional scenes, I didn’t want to push the emotion too much, and Ridley’s never one to encourage me to go too hard in that respect. So we aligned on this method of recording some of these emotional cues with the warmth and beauty that an orchestra at Abbey Road would give us–these beautiful muted strings. But in the mix, to have this consort of viols that played the same notes in some cases and mix them just in front of the orchestra, we were able to give the sound more of an edge. Ridley likes a bit of edge at every turn, even through the most emotional scenes. One of the approaches I took to the Roman invasion at the beginning of the film, for instance–one of the first cues that I tackled–I wrote it to a slightly longer cut. It was before the movie was fine cut, the bows didn’t have arrows, and the boats weren’t sitting in the sea, but I had a good sense of what was going on. The sound effects had not been complete, so there was much to do during that period of post-production, but I felt that I wanted a time signature, that is to say, a kind of beat, to be slightly disorientating.
On another occasion, I might have set my BPM (beats per minute) at 140 and set my time signature to be four beats in a bar, but I didn’t do either of those things. I decided on an approach with seven beats in a bar, which gives us that feeling of hurrying at the end of each bar because one’s expecting completion of the bar, and it’s not there. I’m always trying to find a fresh way of tackling things and it was a really thrilling sequence, but again, not the fine cut. This is the world that we live in as composers. As I was writing the music, as I was getting closer to the sound and the thematic elements that I felt I needed, another version of the film would come in, a slightly different cut: the bows had arrows, the ships were in the water, and sound effects would come in that I hadn’t heard before. It’s a collaboration in the truest sense of the word. I imagine there probably were composers in the past who wrote the music and handed it in–there you go. We’re running parallel to the rest of the post-production team–sound people and visual effects. The rhino was on wheels for the longest time. So if he didn’t have any feet, then there was no sound for his parumparumparum (mimics the sound of a rhino running). That wasn’t present, but I obviously knew that there were going to be some sounds from that rhino. Gradually, as weeks turned into months, more and more of the film was finished. One of the last things to be finished is music. The sound guys are going down the same path as me. They’re racing towards the first day of the final dub when the final mix of the movie comes together. And we’re in touch with each other all the time. For instance, the very angry apes had incredibly high-pitched sounds when they were created. So that was a sonic resonance I wasn’t going to go anywhere near.
The Contending: One of the things I don’t think anyone’s ever accused Ridley Scott of being is maudlin, even when there are emotional sequences. You had experience working with him previously on House of Gucci and Kingdom of Heaven. Ridley Scott, I think of him as a very precise filmmaker. Is he one of those directors with his fingers in everything, or does he give you more room? What is the working experience like?
Harry Gregson-Williams: He’s very precise and deliberate to begin with. I can’t speak for the other departments, but I’m fairly sure that he goes about it the same way with them as well. From my point of view, he set me on a path and led me to it and let me come back to him with ideas, and, when I’m ready, with music. That’s not always the case, but on this particular movie, I was able to lead myself a lot of the time. There was plenty of time for me to be able to go down a path, beat a hasty retreat, come back, and then try another method. I didn’t have to do that too often, but with time, one can always improve things. Ridley will engage at any time that he’s requested, but he’s not one of these directors who will come and stand over me day in/day out. Unlike his brother, Tony. (Smiles).
The Contending: That’s interesting that they were so different. You worked with Tony numerous times.
Harry Gregson-Williams: I worked with Tony on Enemy of the State, Spy Game, Man on Fire, Domino, Deja Vu, The Taking of Pelham 1, 2, 3, and Unstoppable.
The Contending: Man on Fire is one of my favorite revenge films. It’s extraordinary.
Harry Gregson-Williams: Denzel’s in that one as well. I’ve done a few with Denzel: Pelham, Deja Vu, Unstoppable. It’s always thrilling to score a movie with Denzel in it because, as a composer, one’s inspiration comes from what one sees on the screen. Watching him working his way through a film is always a joy. But yes, Ridley’s very deliberate without being overbearing. He’ll always have time for me when I need to play him music, thematic material, or specific cues. And he’s very encouraging. He’ll usually start his review with “That’s great, well done, thank you,” and then there may be a but. Can we make this passage a little darker? Or should the texture of this be a little bit more unsettled? He won’t speak in musical terms, but he’ll give me a very good idea of what he’s after.
The Contending: I want to return to Lisa Gerrard because there is a lot of voice in your score, maybe more than I think is in most films. I’m a kid of the eighties, so Lisa Gerrard and her duo Dead Can Dance are right in my hot zone. Not that she’s doing full-on opera, but is there a connection to the fact that this takes place in Rome? Was there a desire to use the voice to match the locale?
Harry Gregson-Williams: Absolutely. I found it inspiring to find vocalists for various moments or characters in the film on this occasion. Lisa was massively important to us–just really finding the spots that I wanted her to sing. We found two perfect spots for her. There were many vocalists that I used and tried in different spots. I find it a very creative path for myself. I understand the voice quite well. Pulling together the sonic template for something like this, that’s really where the juice is for me.
The Contending: There are two types of musical scores; maybe there are more than two, but there are two in particular that I think of when I’m watching a movie. There’s one that completely serves the movie but isn’t necessarily something you would listen to on its own. And then there are scores that work for the movie and are enjoyable to listen to on their own. I found your score to be very listenable outside of the movie while also working within the movie. When you are working on a score, do you try to balance the idea of it standing on its own, or is it purely about serving the film, and if it works outside of the film, that’s great.
Harry Gregson-Williams: Initially, I’m serving the film, and that’s key, and that’s the primary purpose. On this movie, I gave myself enough time to be able to do various things that, perhaps on other occasions, I haven’t been able to. Sometimes, there may be a sixth of the time to write a score like this. Maybe it has to be done in eight weeks for whatever reason. On this Gladiator II, I had much more time. After I had delivered the music and we had mixed it into the movie, I made sure I had enough time then to really focus on programming the music for the record. I haven’t had that opportunity too many times in my career. Usually, I’m either still trying to finish the film, and there are bits and pieces that still need work, or perhaps I’m moving on to Shrek 2 or another film. I felt like I really owed it to the film and Ridley. Hans did tell me he would beat me up if I didn’t do a good job, so it’s very intimidating. (Laughs). I did have three or four weeks after I had delivered the music for the film to then think about how I wanted the music to sound on a record. So I did invest a lot of time in that.
The Contending: I mentioned before that the movie has eye-boggling moments in it where you just almost can’t believe what you’re seeing. Such as the recreation of the ship battle with sharks in the water in the Colosseum. Suddenly, you have this wild Deep Blue Sea mash-up with Master and Commander. I know that sequence is polarizing for some. Whatever one might think of it, it is an extraordinary set piece. What was the ask like for you, as a composer, to try to put together something that suits that moment?
Harry Gregson-Williams: By that time in the movie, we’re really invested in Lucius. We’ve gotten to know what path he’s on. From a musical point of view, we’re right behind him every step of the way. Everything is really from the point of view of how it appears to him. It’s quite epic, that scene, isn’t it? Again, the sound effects I had to duck and dive around were really cool in that scene. All the action sequences, whether the Roman invasion at the beginning of the movie, the angry apes, the rhinoceros, the battle towards the end of the film, or the final battle in the Colosseum, just have a lot of energy. Ridley was looking for energy and support for his characters, that’s it. That was great fun to do, the naval battle.
The Contending: In a film like this, with such epic sweep and such gonzo moments, how do you avoid going overboard for the sweep of your score? It would be very easy to pitch the score at an overly heightened level on a film like this.
Harry Gregson-Williams: Yeah, I tend to be more on the subtler side, perhaps, than some other composers, and Ridley’s with me on that. That doesn’t mean to say he doesn’t want me to embody the bold and epic at all. What I love about this movie is the way that he paced it and edited it, there are moments of calm before the storm and after the storm. So I was well aware that we could vary the score’s range along with what we see on screen, but there will be reflective plaintive moments to counterbalance. I think that’s Ridley’s skill.
The Contending: The closing theme, “Now We Are Free,” from the first film is so beautiful. How was it for you, as a composer, to lead up to someone else’s composition?
Harry Gregson-Williams: That’s my old boss, my mentor, and my friend, Hans Zimmer. I felt very comfortable with it. It was Ridley’s choice to have that there, and I respected that, and I loved it. It has precisely the right uplifting feeling. It’s very spiritual. The fact that Ridley had put it there and was confident about it was good enough for me. It plays over the end credits; it doesn’t play within the film. I didn’t see a problem with that choice at all. Who am I to say, for goodness sake? It’s a beautiful piece of music. We would have said the same if they had stuck a bit of Puccini on the end. I didn’t feel like somehow it was a slight to me.
The Contending: I think you ended up being very in sync with your mission to connect the two films while putting your stamp on the film.
Harry Gregson-Williams: That was the object of it. This movie doesn’t exist alone. It is a very close relative of the first movie. I’ve done sequels. I’ve done Shrek sequels, Equalizer sequels, and Narnia sequels, but those were different. They’re different because I wrote the score for the first movie in all those cases. In this case, I had to respect the much-loved work that Hans had done all those years ago. We didn’t set out by saying okay, let’s just use the music from the first movie. Clearly, there was going to be a load of original music that I had to write, but somehow we did want to be able to put people in mind of that first movie, in that world throughout.
