Jonathan Pryce’s journey with David Cartwright across Apple TV’s Slow Horses has been as enjoyable for him as it has been for us watching him. He has appreciated the progression of the character and how Alzheimer’s is depicted in the show, an issue near and dear to him. He tells great stories that relate to how he views his roles, and someone needs to get him in a comedy with all the jokes he tells; he has a great talent for it!
The Contending: River has been starting to pull away from David, or at least not being as excited to hear his grandfather’s opinions. Do you think David senses that now?
Jonathan Pryce: Oh, I blame the author. We’ve got a third party to deal with. I have nothing against River (laughs) From reading the scripts prior to shooting them, I was aware that River was having all these thoughts about his grandfather, but wasn’t expressing them to his grandfather. In a book you can see all the thought processes, and I wanted Will Smith to make it concrete that River should have a little more contact with his grandfather to help show that. And Will did make some tiny adjustments. But I don’t think David senses it. He’s got the beginnings of dementia and he’s very much in his own world for much of the time.
The Contending: What’s interesting is even with him getting dementia and River pulling away, David is still able to provide crucial information that allows River to stop a lot of the terrorist attacks. How is it playing a character who is losing mental faculty but still has these great insights at moments? Is it an interesting way to get into that mindset?
Jonathan Pryce: Well, I’ll tell you what just happened to me in the last few days. There’s going to be a television program about a very significant figure in broadcasting in Britain, Jon Snow, who worked at Channel 4. Jon’s the same age as me and we’ve been friends for 40 years. This film was made by Channel 4 and the Alzheimer’s Society about when Jon was first diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. What’s absolutely gratifying about it is you can still see the Jon you know, and the Jon who is my friend. He’s just expressing himself in slightly different ways. And in the film, the camera crew goes to Zambia, where Jon spends a lot of the time because his wife, Precious, is Zambian. And Jon becomes aware of a mining disaster in the Chinese-run copper mines in Zambia that has not been reported at all. And it’s a huge disaster. Crops are destroyed, the river is destroyed, animal life is destroyed, and people are going hungry. But Jon, who had just recently had his Alzheimer’s diagnosis, springs into action. He knows this is what he can do, this is what his job is, and he goes and visits the site. The camera crew go with him and you see him in action.
When I was watching the film it made me think about David Cartwright, and how his capabilities within are the same, even though he has an Alzheimer’s diagnosis. It was a great lesson for me. And I think the film of Jon will be a great lesson to the public, that you shouldn’t discount people because they have Alzheimer’s, and that you should be living with Alzheimer’s, not living because of Alzheimer’s. I’m an ambassador for the Alzheimer’s Society in Britain, so it’s very important to me that he’s viewed in and portrayed in the correct and sympathetic way at the same time.
The Contending: You’ve played characters with this condition in the past. Is there something with David that’s distinct or different that you’ve noticed compared to some of the other characters you’ve played in the past?
Jonathan Pryce: I get paid slightly more money for being on television than in the theatre, (laughs) but, no, it’s the same impulses and the same instincts. I don’t think of David’s Alzheimer’s as being a separate issue with the man. I think it’s because when I first read the scripts I hadn’t read the books, so I didn’t know what David’s story trajectory was. I discovered his Alzheimer’s the same time as he and the audience discovered it.
The difference for me was when I was performing on stage people were in the same room with me. Even if it’s a large theater, being in the same room has a much more emotional impact on people. But it is also a very positive impact on the audience because it can be quite isolating for families that have someone with Alzheimer’s. They think it’s only happening to them, and when they see it on stage it’s a shared experience. You can get comfort from seeing it, and it might also lead you to getting help for the career as well as getting help for the person with Alzheimer’s.
But, in terms of storytelling in Slow Horses, it’s a wonderful arc to go on with David and his grandson. Knowing that you can tease the audience at times by what other people like that bastard Jackson Lamb says about him. Cartwright knows where the bodies are buried.
And my thinking about the character is that one day he might, through Alzheimer’s or other means, start revealing the secrets. When we did find out about his past with his daughter and that French connection, it was extraordinary how dark his past was. I always saw him as a benign, kindly man. Because you don’t want to play the villain, it’s for other people to tell the audience who the villain is. I actually find that I play a lot of villainous characters, but I don’t set out to play them as villains.
I think back to my time on Game of Thrones. I hadn’t read the books, because it’s a genre of literature that doesn’t appeal to me. But when I got the scripts for season five my character, the High Sparrow, seemed to be a kind man, and ironically, I based my character work on Pope Francis, who I got to play later. But at first the High Sparrow was doing everything that Pope Francis was talking about doing when he first became Pope. Taking care of the poor, washing their feet, feeding them, and talking about the disenfranchised. So I played him as a good man, a man who believed in himself totally and what he was doing. Not knowing that he was an ultimate evil bastard who would lead this terrible sect. And, you know, I was glad I didn’t know it through season five because I could focus on that one aspect of his character without having to think he’s really a bad man.
Donald Trump doesn’t think he’s a bad man. He gets up every morning and thinks what can I do for the world (and for me), but what can I do good for the world? Though we all know the results. I think that’s really about not playing your subtext in a character, but being in the moment and playing the man as he is when you see him.
The Contending: One of the big moments with the season is when David reveals crucial information to River in a very quiet scene at the rest home, with River seemingly unhappy to be there. When we last saw David in the home he was full of anger and resentment about being there and now he’s just relaxed. What was that sequence like to film Jack Lowden, with this new take?
Jonathan Pryce: Well, it’s true to life. I have friends and family members who have dementia.
And I know what they’re like before they go into a care home and they can be very anxious and disturbed. But if the care home is doing their job right and taking care of people and giving them the right environment, all the anxiety disappears. I think it’s very good that we did see David happy, because it was very distressing when he first went into the home. I even got very upset seeing him being left in the home. But then seeing him in a positive light when Jack goes to visit him and gives him information this second time around by accident comparing the world of the bees. There was a tiny bit more of that scene, which they didn’t include, about how we related to other people in the home. But it wasn’t necessary for the story and I realized they had to get on and tell the main story. It wasn’t all about me I understood. But the bastards did cut down my screen time (laughter).
But when I saw the scene I was really happy with the way David’s dementia was portrayed, because it’s not always down to you, it’s obviously down to the editor and everyone that worked on those scenes. They were very empathetic to the character. No mucking about, no joking about. In fact the only person who had anything negative to say about Cartwright and his dementia within the show was, of course, Jackson Lamb, who took great delight in prodding me and being unpleasant to me, revealing their history.
The Contending: You’ve now been on this journey with the character across five seasons. Where do you feel you’re at with him after all this time?
Jonathan Pryce: A job well done! I get a really nice response from the people on the street and people who write for the show. I do a lot of historical work, costume dramas, Shakespeare, and all kinds of things. But what I mostly enjoy is being in contemporary dramas because they’re the ones I enjoy watching. And I’ve had the best experience with Slow Horses. It’s been great working with Jack, obviously, but also the whole production company, and especially Will Smith, the writer. It’s been a really great experience and I wish Cartwright wasn’t so old, because you know, there’s gonna be a natural end to the role. But it’s been extraordinary.
I’ve been very fortunate in the past since COVID and just prior to COVID, and the things that I have got to do, from Game of Thrones through to The Crown to Slow Horses…I got lucky recently. It’s great.
The Contending: Speaking of contemporary work, are you going to have a bigger role in the second season of Riot Women?
Jonathan Pryce: That was always the intention. I have worked with Sally Wainwright before and I absolutely love her and her work. And when she asked me to do this tiny scene even if I thought there wasn’t going to be another life for the character, I wanted to do it, because I wanted to be in a Sally Wainwright show. It’s a bit like years ago when I did Jumping Jack Flash with Whoopi Goldberg, and you hear my voice throughout the film. I timed it and I’m on screen for 1 minute 40 seconds. But the impact that 1 minute 40 seconds has is enormous. For years and years, especially in America, people would shout out to me: “Hey Jack!”. People still recall it, saying they watched it when they were kids.
So I do know the impact a couple of minutes can have, especially when it comes at the very end of that extraordinary story. You know she has a father, but we never really see him. He’s just talked about and then you see him made flesh and it’s wonderful. The economy is so great, setting it up and then him giving her all the names, and then he says, What you gonna do? And you just go ‘wah, wah, wah, wah.’ But Sally is still writing it, I think she didn’t start writing it until after Riot Women had been broadcast. I’m hoping to have good news that Keith lives. Because I thought it was an excellent series.
The Contending: I enjoyed it immensely, too, and I didn’t know you were in it until halfway through, so I kept waiting to see where you were in it.
Jonathan Pryce: I was longer on the train getting to Manchester than I was on set.
The Contending: Final thoughts?
Jonathan Pryce: I’ve done quite a few independent films and TV this past year. And there’s one which I really loved and I am very fond of called It’s All Going Very Well… by Tilda Cobham-Hervey. Who at the age 30, has written, is starring in, and has directed this film. I’ve had some of the best experiences ever on low-budget independent films because there’s a great economy in filmmaking. You don’t have the money, you don’t have the time, and you film what you need. And I had a wonderful time in Adelaide with Tilda, so that’s hopefully doing the rounds of the festivals this year.
Slow Horses is streaming now on Apple TV, and it will return for its sixth season in September.
